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Joe's avatar

I have become much more sympathetic to Robin's position on this recently. The two main arguments that convinced me:

Some claim that the lives of most poor people / animals / etc are obviously not worth living, with their evidence being that they would prefer to spend an hour unconscious rather than spend that hour as (say) an average wild animal. But this kind of argument seems far too flimsy to support such claims.

For example, assuming I will live a long life, I would be happy to skip out, say, a randomly selected dull plane journey from some point in my future. But if told that I was about to experience a plane journey and then die afterward, and given the choice to just die immediately instead, I would MUCH rather experience those extra few hours, even spent sitting in an uncomfortable plane seat with my ears popping. And I expect that some ecstatically happy pampered transhuman would say, truthfully, that they would rather spend an hour unconscious than experience an hour of my life - yet I think my life is worth living, even the bad parts. And my assessment of an experience seems to depend very heavily on my prior expectations, and also on what my peers are doing - I'm much more willing to put up with something if I know I'm not alone in having to do so.

And so on. Also, the concept of a happiness set point seems to be quite well established. Upon examination this argument seems to me about as strong as folk economic claims about the 'true value' of a good, that if I wouldn't buy something then surely anyone who does is being ripped off.

Some other people claim that, even if the modal experience of a wild animal or poor person is positive utility, severe pain is so strongly negative that even a small amount of it can easily outweigh a life that's otherwise comprised of long periods of low, but positive, utility experiences. But I think this puts far too little emphasis on experience duration. I would MUCH rather experience a few seconds of severe pain, than a day of, say, a dull stomach ache.

Really the thing that frightens me most about severe pain is when it's accompanied by long-term effects like disfigurement. But if you're experiencing severe pain in the process of being killed, this doesn't apply - in fact this is probably the best time to experience disfigurement.

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Stephen Diamond's avatar

Yes this is ideological and in some sense political, so what?

Tastes aren't claims. Treating them as claims - which is what ideologies do - results in falsehood. (See Why do what you "ought"?—A habit theory of explicit morality - http://juridicalcoherence.b... )

The core issue seems to come down to different models of how ethics scales with pain vs pleasure, over many beings or over much time, etc.

Robin and Eliezer do something else. They assert (Robin) or try to establish (Eliezer) a particular correspondence. They aren't scaling any extant ethics. They are aesthetically enamored with the model and adopt the corresponding ethics, not as an ethics (which you can't simply adopt) but as an ideology.

Is it off topic? If this were a pure subjective exercise, yes. But it's a subjective exercise implicitly pretending to objectivity.

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